KATE SULLIVAN: What makes you a success in work and life?

Are you a giver or are you a taker?

Do you vibe in life or are you disconnected?

Today, we are tackling these questions and more with superstar professor and best-selling author Adam Grant.

KATE: Adam, how are you?

ADAM GRANT: Thanks for coming out.

So nice to meet you.

KATE: Adam is taking me to his favorite restaurant to eat what he loves and find out why he loves it.

Oh, and it's warm.

What's better than warm cornbread?

He is a whiz at teaching, writing, and analyzing data at the University of Pennsylvania's prestigious Wharton School of Business.

His expert insights and groundbreaking studies help us forge stronger and more productive bonds.

But this work has been far from easy for Adam, taking a job that puts him center stage.

ADAM: One of the students wrote, "You're so nervous, you're causing us to physically shake in our seats."

KATE: But Adam's come a long way, and his latest lesson is teaching us how to vibe with others in a fragmented world.

ADAM: It feels like magic, but that doesn't mean there isn't a whole science behind it.

Neuroscientists, in fact, can trace your brainwaves and your heartbeats synchronizing, when you're vibing with someone.

KATE: It's all an effort to get people to reconnect in this digital world.

How do you do it?

Adam is sharing his secrets today.

ADAM: The goal of interaction is not to get it right.

It's actually to try to get aligned in stumbling in the same direction.

KATE: What's better in life than a bottle of wine, great food, and an amazing conversation?

My name is Kate Sullivan, and I am the host of To Dine For .

I'm a journalist, a foodie, a traveler with an appetite for the stories of people who are hungry for more: dreamers, visionaries, artists: those who hustle hard in the direction they love.

I travel with them to their favorite restaurant to hear how they did it.

This show is a toast to them and their American dream.

To Dine For with Kate Sullivan is made possible by... ♪ ♪ FEMALE ANNOUNCER: We support the doers and dreamers.

Those working today toward a more secure tomorrow.

At American National, we're proud to help you make that future possible.

[Wine dribbling into glass] KATE: Hello everyone!

Today, I'm in Haverford, Pennsylvania on my way into White Dog Cafe.

I'm meeting an author, a professor, and a visionary academic.

I can't wait for you to meet Adam Grant.

KATE: Adam, How are you?

ADAM: Hi ya, Kate.

KATE: Hi, how's it going?

ADAM: Good.

How are you?

KATE: I'm excellent.

ADAM: Thanks for coming out.

So nice to meet you.

KATE: Where there's a will, there's a way.

ADAM: Made it happen.

KATE: We made it happen, didn't we?

We sure did.

And at just the right spot for a delicious breakfast and great conversation.

The White Dog Cafe in Haverford is one of five locations in the Philadelphia area, all decorated with whimsical dog decor and artwork.

The owners describe it as warm, comforting, and loyal, just like your favorite dog.

SYDNEY GRIMS: I think that it's something that just brings a lot of joy to our guests.

Some of our locations you can actually have your dog painted for the walls.

All these restaurants are neighborhood restaurants, so we want people to feel like they can come.

They can see their dog on the wall and feel like they're really at home.

KATE: A neighborhood hang that's homey and comforting, where locals and visitors alike come to enjoy a real farm to table experience.

Daily specials, local brews and all-American wine list and fresh, locally sourced ingredients are on the menu.

SYDNEY: White Dog is the first farm to table restaurant in Philadelphia.

What we provide here is something that is really special.

KATE: Special and delicious.

Today, Adam chose some of his favorites, starting with the White Dog bread basket with homemade cornbread, warm biscuits followed by scrambled eggs with potatoes, toast, and crispy bacon.

A perfect way to start the day in a laid back and cozy setting.

SYDNEY: We are not a Michelin star restaurant.

You know, we want to be the loyal dog that you come, you're a regular.

You come use us for breakfast, brunch, lunch, dinner.

We have people that dine here every day.

You know, we want to be the neighborhood watering hole, but also the place you come to for graduation.

So, there's a little bit of something for everybody.

That's really what we want to be known for.

KATE: And that's exactly why Adam Grant picked the White Dog Cafe.

His favorite local gem.

KATE: You're not from Pennsylvania.

You're from Michigan, correct?

ADAM: It's true.

KATE: But this is somehow become a favorite restaurant of yours.

Why and how?

ADAM: I think I discovered it teaching at Penn because I think the original White Dog is on campus, and it's a perennial student favorite.

So, they have their student faculty meals program, and you can take seven students to lunch at a time.

And every request I got from students was, please, can we do White Dog?

[Kate laughs] So that was my introduction.

And what made me such a fan is I'm a supertaster.

KATE: Mmm-hmm.

What's a supertaster?

ADAM: I have extra taste buds on my tongue.

KATE: Truthfully?

ADAM: Yeah.

So, I hate chocolate.

Coffee, I can't even stand the smell.

I've never tasted it.

Green vegetables.

Cilantro.

All disgusting.

So, I basically like a five year old and White Dog has the best food, if you're five.

KATE: I have never, ever heard of a supertaster.

And I'm so sorry I pre-ordered an iced coffee.

ADAM: It's not going to affect me.

KATE: I know, but will you smell it?

ADAM: No, but I'm used to it by now.

KATE: Okay.

ADAM: I also should have said that White Dog has food if you're not five.

The rest of my family loves.

[Kate laughs] KATE: Okay.

So, what... what happens when you take a student out to lunch?

How does that relationship change and perhaps get better?

ADAM: You know what.

It's such an interesting question because I initially didn't know what to do.

And so, I just spent the whole lunch just interviewing my students, basically, and trying to learn about what their experience was like at Wharton, what they were studying.

KATE: Almost gathering data... Yeah.

ADAM: Yeah, yeah.

And then, I discovered they were, they were a little bit unhappy with it because they had questions for me.

KATE: Okay.

ADAM: And I thought it was, it felt self-focused or self-centered in some way to "let's talk about me for a second.

I'm here to get to know you."

And so, I've tried to just treat it over time like a conversation [chuckles] and not have an agenda or a goal.

KATE: Oooo.

ADAM: Oh, cornbread for the win.

KATE: Oh, yes.

This is your order, right?

You love this cornbread?

ADAM: The only thing that might top it is my wife's cornbread souffle on Thanksgiving.

KATE: Oooo... Delicious.

ADAM: But White Dog cornbread is, you might say to dine for.

KATE: To dine for.

[laughs] Let's do it.

Let's try this.

Oh, and it's warm.

What's better than warm cornbread?

ADAM: Has to be.

KATE: Well, tell me a little bit about how you grew up.

ADAM: I think I was a really happy and really lucky kid.

Early on, I developed some strong interests that just kind of were endlessly fascinating to me.

It started out with collecting baseball cards and comic books and just being obsessed with sports and superheroes, and it morphed into annoying my friends because they called me "Mister Facts" whenever we were trading cards or doing our own fantasy sports leagues.

You know, I would rattle off statistics about the players and they would just roll their eyes.

But it was actually, it was fun; because I got to learn something that then they were a little bit excited to...to understand.

And I think it was foreshadowing that I was going to be a professor, but I did not know it at the time.

KATE: Well, that's so funny, cause that was going to be my next question.

Were there any bread crumbs or cornbread crumbs of that you were going to do the work that you're doing?

Which is really you're a student of life, of groups, of how people interact.

Was there any of those that you saw looking back as a child?

ADAM: Yeah, my...my mom actually sent me, an old Sports Illustrated for kids magazine a few years ago.

She said, "you have to look at this."

And I opened it, and there was a picture of me in it.

KATE: You?

ADAM: Yeah, me.

And I didn't even remember this happening, but apparently, they had a contest to predict the winner and the loser of the baseball World Series before the season started.

And here I was like, predicting team success and studying the players and trying to figure out which baseball team is going to become more than the sum of its parts.

I was doing organizational psychology... KATE: Back then?

ADAM: Yeah, I just didn't know that had a name.

KATE: And there you have it.

The start of a jam-packed career, pioneering research on motivation and success.

A top-rated professor at Wharton with multiple bestsellers, tens of millions of views for his TED talks and over 100 million downloads for not one but two podcasts.

Adam credits renowned Harvard professor Brian Little with mentoring him along the way and helping him understand the meaning of meaningful connections.

A lot for a self-described introvert.

KATE: You're now a professor.

You have two podcasts.

You're constantly either speaking or you're out in public.

How do you do that?

How do you manage that and where are the boundaries for you?

ADAM: It was a struggle at first.

KATE: Yeah.

ADAM: So, I remember when I gave my first guest lecture before I even started teaching my own class, one of the students wrote, "you're so nervous, you're causing us to physically shake in our seats."

[Kate laughs] And another one wrote, "you remind us of a Muppet."

KATE: That must have been like a dagger.

Or did you think it was funny?

ADAM: You know, they also said some really nice things about the content and my enthusiasm for the material.

And so, I just felt like, okay, I'm gonna get better at this... KATE: Yeah, it was like, hint I've really got to learn some things here.

ADAM: Yes, but you talk about dagger.

A few years later, I taught my first class for a group of Air Force generals and colonels, and after the session, I pulled out the feedback forms and one of them wrote, "there was more knowledge in the audience than on the podium."

KATE: Wow.

ADAM: [exhales loudly] I wanted to quit my job.

KATE: Wow.

And did...okay.

Looking at that empirically, do you think he was right, or do you think that was just ego speaking?

ADAM: No, I think he was right.

I think I had... I'd come in feeling like an imposter.

They had thousands of flying hours.

They had hundreds of thousands of troops under their command.

They had multi-billion-dollar budgets.

KATE: Right.

ADAM: And here I was, this kid half their age.

KATE: Yeah and were you speaking about leadership?

ADAM: Yeah.

KATE: And you're in this room of like... ADAM: Who are you?

KATE: ...ultimate leaders.

ADAM: Yeah.

And so, I came out of that and thought I remember actually Googling, is it possible for humans to hibernate like bears?

Because I just, I just wanted to go to sleep for three months.

And forget the experience.

But I had a problem, I had already committed to doing another session with a group of U.S.

Air Force leaders.

It was...it was about a week later and I didn't have time to reboot my material.

KATE: How do you get better?

How do you take that information and pivot?

ADAM: The only thing I could think to do was to go to the Air Force leaders who had crucified me, and ask them for more.

KATE: Okay.

ADAM: But instead of asking them for feedback, I posed a different question.

I sought their advice.

And Kate, I didn't know this at the time, but research has come out since then showing that you actually learn more from other people when you ask for advice than feedback.

Because feedback is backward looking.

KATE: Oh, that's good.

ADAM: People will tell you what you did wrong yesterday.

KATE: Right.

ADAM: Whereas, advice is forward looking, they'll tell you what you can do better tomorrow.

KATE: Oh, that's brilliant.

ADAM: And so, sure enough, they gave me advice.

And the best tip that I got was...one of the Air Force leaders said," you know, we can tell that you're inexperienced.

Why don't you just call it the elephant in the room?"

And I thought, what do I have to lose?

And so, I took that, that bit of advice.

I walked in the next week, and I looked out at the Air Force leaders and instead of name tags, they had their call signs.

ADAM: So, I'm looking at Gunner, Striker, Bomber, Sand Dune.

And I locked eyes with the toughest looking one and I said, "Look, Sand Dune.

I think I know what you're thinking right now.

What could I possibly learn from a professor who's 12 years old?"

It was crickets until he jumped in and said, "12?

That's ridiculous.

You look like you're at least 13."

[Kate laughs] ADAM: And that broke the ice and everybody laughed.

I more or less covered the same material, but I think, you know, I...I basically shown some humility to them and said, "you know, I...I realize I'm a lot younger than you all, and I hope we can learn something together."

And afterward, the comments were night and day different.

KATE: That icebreaker was just one of many intense learning experiences that Adam learned along the way.

As a young 20 something professor who was tenured well before 30, he eventually started publishing papers and gathering data and empirical evidence that continues to change the workplace landscape.

Like, the concept of givers and takers in business.

KATE: A lot of people in corporate America are takers, and they actually achieve career success faster.

But givers have longevity in their career and they actually have more career satisfaction.

So, I'm curious how you came up with that and why do you think it's resonated so deeply?

ADAM: Well, I actually love the way you captured it, because I think that, like my...my temptation when I wrote "Give and Take" was to try to make the case that givers are more successful than takers, because that is a pattern I saw in the long run across so many different lines of work.

KATE: Are more successful?

Yeah.

ADAM: Yeah, over time they get better performance reviews.

They're more likely to get promoted into leadership as well, because ultimately, they're the people who are adding value.

But often the takers are really good fakers, and they trick us and they end up having this superficial charm of narcissists, or they get really good at kissing up, but then kicking down.

And so, they fool the people above them, even though their peers and subordinates can see their true colors.

And so, I wanted to try to change that dynamic with the evidence that I'd spent really the last decade gathering.

And I think what got me so curious about it was in part my students saying, "okay, I want to build a successful career, and then I will start giving back."

ADAM: And I started telling them, look, from the research I've done, that's actually backward.

You don't have to succeed first and then become a good person.

You can actually succeed by helping others, but you have to be thoughtful about it because there are givers who burn out, burned by takers.

KATE: Yes, sure.

ADAM: And so, you can't help all the people all the time with all the requests.

I think what you what you want to do is to choose a third style which is matching.

So, whereas a giver says basically...a giver is somebody who says, "what can I do for you?"

A taker is the opposite.

They want to know, "what can you do for me?"

KATE: Right.

ADAM: A matcher is somebody who says, "I'll do something for you, if you do something for me."

And what I found is that when givers shift into matcher mode, if they're in a selfish environment, they can protect themselves.

And when a taker tries to exploit them, they can say, "look, I'm not going to help you unless you're willing to reciprocate."

And then, you can ask them to pay it back or pay it forward and hold them accountable for doing that.

KATE: They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but Adam Grant thinks you actually can.

With commitment and hard work.

Even a go-getter can face new headwinds and Adam did, especially during the pandemic.

Like many of us, he suffered a chronic condition called languishing.

So, he wrote about it in The New York Times, which, not surprisingly, was one of the most downloaded articles of 2021, calling it "the neglected middle child of mental health."

KATE: How do you start to get out of languishing?

ADAM: I think of mindfulness.

I think of mattering.

KATE: What's mattering?

ADAM: Mattering is...is the sense that you make a difference to other people.

KATE: Significance.

ADAM: This is Gregory Elliott's research.

You don't just feel seen and appreciated.

You actually feel like you count.

You have something to offer.

You have something to contribute to others, that you can be a giver.

KATE: What does an organization do when they bring in Adam Grant and you hold up a mirror to what's going on in a corporate culture, and the managers don't like what they hear?

ADAM: Yeah, I mean, it happens regularly.

I think...you know, my job is not to come in and make people feel good.

It's to come in and help them do better.

And I think that begins at the top.

And so, you know, I will often come in and say, "look, you can rest on your laurels and only start making changes when you're forced to when there's a burning platform that creates a sense of urgency, or you can start investing in trying to build better leaders now... KATE: Yeah.

ADAM: And that will pay dividends in the future.

It's your choice."

KATE: Choices, relationships, bonding, reoccurring themes that have led Adam on his latest journey with his newest book, "Vibe: The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World."

This is a science-based dive into the importance of interactions between individuals and our shared communities, and why it's so vital to preserve those relationships.

Vibe is such a word of...of now, right?

People have..."it's a vibe, you know?"

But you chose to name your book "Vibe."

Why?

ADAM: My daughter and I, I ran into somebody that I knew casually.

It was an acquaintance, and we were chatting.

And afterward she said, "you two were really vibing."

That's the title for the book.

That's what...that's the topic I've been trying to get my head around.

I want to know what drives chemistry between people who hardly know each other, what creates a sense of closeness, where you feel like somebody you just met is almost a lifelong friend.

Why is it that some people that you've shared meaningful history with, like you, just cannot click?

KATE: Vibing happens when sort of magically like, almost like, I don't know what it is about that person, but we're just vibing, right?

What does it mean in your terms?

ADAM: Yeah.

Well, it's it feels like magic, but that doesn't mean there isn't a whole science behind it.

Neuroscientists, in fact, can trace your brainwaves and your heartbeat synchronizing when you're vibing with someone.

KATE: Really?

ADAM: Yeah.

So, it's actually happening in the body and in the brain, and not just... It's not just a feeling.

And what I found is there are actually four different wavelengths that people can vibe on.

I think of the four, as I call them: associates, allies, companions, and pals.

And associates are basically acquaintances, but sometimes they're meaningful acquaintances, like your neighbor, who you carpool with when your kids need to go somewhere.

Right?

Because you know you can count on that person to...to give a ride.

KATE: Trust.

Yeah.

ADAM: Yeah, exactly.

I think the more meaningful connections are between allies, pals, and companions.

So, allies are people who share your goals.

Pals are people who share your interests, and companions are people who share your values.

And each...each of those relationships is different.

Um and I think where we run into trouble, is I want to have a conversation where I think we're pals.

And so, it's very light.

We're talking about TV shows and movies and sports and music.

And meanwhile, you expect me to be a companion, and you're upset that I didn't show proper sympathy, that you're grieving the loss of somebody close to you.

And what we don't realize is we are, we are like ships passing in the night because we need to get aligned on the fact that this is either primarily a pal connection or a companion connection.

And if we have different expectations, that is a recipe for being disappointed by the interaction and maybe even letdown or betrayed by the relationship.

KATE: I would think that in corporate settings, trying to get two people who don't get along to work together well would be something that every business in America would want to hire you for.

What advice can you give for people who do not vibe to perhaps find some solidarity?

ADAM: I've been working on this for a long time with teams, and I've studied work teams and sports teams.

And the biggest surprise for me, is that you do not have to like someone to like working with them.

And there's a difference between bonding within a group and bonding to a group.

So, the research that changed my mind on this basically showed that if you want to predict a team's success, what's called task cohesion is more important than social cohesion.

And that means, if I know I can trust you to deliver, if you're competent and reliable and you have good intentions, that matters more than if I think that you're somebody that I'd love to run into at a bar.

Or you're somebody that I'm hoping, you know, might actually become a close friend.

KATE: Yes.

Your goal isn't "likes" it's not "followers."

It's not gaining status.

But as your work becomes more prominent, you are getting more attention on...on you.

Does that scare you at all?

Or do you ever think to yourself, ooh, where is the balance here?

Is there going to be a balance that I'm comfortable with?

ADAM: I don't...I don't like the attention at all.

I don't like being recognized when I go places with my family.

You know for me the good part of it has been it has, it has pushed me to open up in ways that I just don't default to.

I think like when writing "Vibe," for example, I had to sit down and say, you know, what part of the reason I want to write this book is I want to understand how I went from being a kid in middle school who was dropped by all but two of my friends, because most people just didn't want to talk to me.

I was too nerdy to now people will use their free time to listen to me have conversations with other people.

How did that happen?

KATE: Mind-blowing, isn't it?

ADAM: Yeah...and why is it that I can just instantly vibe with some of the people some of the time?

I worry a lot that in the age of AI, people, people are just choosing-- they're choosing not to have this struggle in the first place.

KATE: How afraid are you of AI, especially with the work that you do, which is so focused on human interaction?

ADAM: I'm pretty concerned at this point.

I'm...I'm deeply disturbed by the number of Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids who say they have an AI companion, and by the number who say, "I would rather talk to my AI companion than an actual friend."

KATE: Wow.

ADAM: I'm really worried about the...the number of not just young people, but older adults too, who are responding to loneliness by seeking out interactions with a machine that are completely one-sided.

I think that, you know, a lot of people are fixated on the fact that when you when you talk to an AI, you're not talking to a real person.

I think what we're overlooking is an AI cannot vibe with you.

You might receive something from a chat bot which is, you know, which is fictional.

It's fake.

It's a charade, not a relationship.

KATE: It's phony...it's phony.

It's a charade.

ADAM: Relationships are two-way streets.

You have nothing to contribute back.

Yeah.

I think a lot of people are avoiding friction.

It's been said now that, you know, social media was hijacking our attention and now AI is hijacking our attachments.

And I think we should be very worried about that.

And I think what I now understand is the goal of interaction is not to get it right.

It's...it's actually to try to get aligned in stumbling in the same direction.

KATE: It seems like you've gotten really comfortable with owning who you really are?

ADAM: I would hate to leave an interaction and have anyone think that I was unkind.

Or that I was disrespectful, or that I was not rigorous in my pursuit of the truth.

But if you can say, hey, Adam seems like a caring person.

KATE: Yeah.

ADAM: And a person of integrity and you know he's not my cup of tea.

That's okay.

I'm fine with that.

KATE: Isn't that a great feeling?

ADAM: It's I think it's liberating.

KATE: I'm curious of all the things you do, from being a professor to writing your books to speaking, um, to doing the podcast.

When in your work, do you feel most Adam?

ADAM: It's writing a book because I get to... Do you remember the E.B.

White quote?

I going to paraphrase, I wake up in the morning torn between enjoying the world and improving the world.

This makes it difficult to plan the day.

I feel that every day, every day.

And book writing is...is the one part of my job where I get to do the peak of both: enjoying the world and trying to improve the world; because I get the...the sheer intrinsic motivation of taking on a big question and trying to build a new worldview to make sense of it.

And bringing together all of the studies and the stories that I think will animate that.

At the same time, I'm getting to teach, and it's not just limited to my classroom.

It's available to...to anyone who reads.

KATE: But writing...but writing over the teaching?

ADAM: It is.

KATE: Yeah.

What is your version of the American dream?

ADAM: I'm actually going to borrow an observation from Brian Little on this one.

So, the Declaration of Independence gave us lives, liberties, and the pursuit of happiness.

I think that...that Brian taught me that we should flip that, that what we should be looking for is the happiness of pursuit.

In my life, I have been so goal-oriented that I, I reach a target or I hit a milestone and I'm already moving on to the next thing.

KATE: Yeah.

ADAM: But at the end of the day, it's, it's the pursuit of the goal that really lights me up.

KATE: I have never heard anyone put it that way.

It is not the pursuit of happiness.

It's the happiness of pursuit.

That is...it's brilliant.

I really love that... ADAM: Credit to Brian Little.

It's the American dream that I want everybody to have a shot at.

Or opportunity for.

KATE: Yes.

I've enjoyed this so much.

ADAM: Same.

KATE: I really, I mean, we could go on and on.

I know you got to get to work, but thank you for this breakfast.

ADAM: Thank you.

KATE: What a meal with Adam Grant.

My fellow introvert.

Adam is a man who studies people who succeeds and who doesn't.

And he has the receipts to share with those who are self-aware enough to want to improve, to grow, to thrive.

As Adam says, success isn't knowing all the answers, but having the willingness to ask the questions and then the ability to sit and listen.

KATE: If you would like to know more about the guests, the restaurants, and the inspiring stories of success, please visit ToDineForTV.com or follow us on Facebook and Instagram @ToDineForTV.

We also have a podcast.

To Dine For , The Podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

To Dine For with Kate Sullivan is made possible by... ♪ ♪ FEMALE ANNOUNCER: We support the doers and dreamers.

Those working today toward a more secure tomorrow.

At American National, we're proud to help you make that future possible.

[Wine dribbling into glass] ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪